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Author Topic: Commission musings  (Read 38574 times)

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BuzzBuzz

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #330 on: April 11, 2018, 04:18:27 PM »

Since the city is basing it's change of citizen comment time on a survey, let's take our own. 

1   How many times has the Fornier ignored his 5 (now 3) minute timer for somebody who wanted to talk about a project the city was in favor of?  Do we have to start bringing stopwatches to meetings to keep that in line?  Would the city even host AB&E if Jon Witz had been muzzled?

2   The 3 minute rule for non-commission meetings is applied to single issue items, usually during public hearings.  Ms Halas' survey also added that there were sometimes two comment periods, the first for agenda items and the next for things not on the agenda. 

To my way of thinking we should be allowed 3 minutes for topic, because the bobbleheads (yes, my favorite term is back, two commissioners excepted) put more than one objectionable item in an agenda. 

3   One MoP (Member of the Pubilc) observed while commissioner phone numbers are provided, access to commissioner ears is not, because mail boxes are too often full.   I'm on the select list of those to whom they will not reply (2 excepted) or, in one case even open an e-mail with my name on it.  I don't call that "access".  The only way to get their attention is to track them down at work or be concise enough to tell all in 3 minutes, every two weeks.

4   I don't want to speak ill of Don Johnson, who is note-taking during Comment and has always been unfailingly polite, but I don't get replies from his either.  Has anybody here? 

5   I wonder if we can get a ballot initiative going to put 5-minute Comment periods into the Charter?  Or elect new ones who treasure our comments better the present ones, who think their precious time is more valuable than what we have to say by email, phone or in person?


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resident

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #331 on: April 12, 2018, 08:52:26 AM »

Buzz,
          I think they prefer email as it is easier to ignore, on not on public record.  ( wrok )
Addressing # 5,

I have emailed several times.
I do not send them return receipt. I figure if they care to read what i care to type, that is up to them.
Just like public comment, just because somebody speaks does not mean others are compelled to listen.

Of my emails, i have received responses from LaVassuer , Gibbs, Paruach, and Dubuc.
The first 2 respond always with at minimum or better, polite " thank you" response. It proves they at least opened/read it. Fine.
Dubuc emailed back once, citing "interesting points", offering to meet for coffee. Responded back that would be fine, to nothing thus far.( offer was repeated at Rules meeting )
Parauch emailed back and forth a few times. Very nice , cordial, and personable.
I have offered to meet with Ms Douglas, of which she was very welcome to the idea.  The ball is in my court on that one.
I have sat down with our State Rep 3+ times. Yes, over adult beverages.
We make a point to keep it open and friendly.  It ain't that difficult to find common ground.  I have enjoyed all our sit downs, and he has stated the same.  Of course we discuss opposing viewpoints. But, we always make a point to keep it dare i say it, fun.
I will state conversations in person, are far more productive and informative for all parties. 

Simply, i am learning that public comment for many , is too late.





     
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 09:10:14 AM by resident »
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RORooster

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #332 on: April 12, 2018, 10:53:30 AM »

I saw some reminiscing of Mr. Versagi on this site not long ago, so I will point out that he was a long time advocate of reducing the speaking time for public comment to three minutes.

As I remember, he also had a hard time with the changes in CITCOM meetings with the advent of video taping the meetings. He noted the length of tome ballooning with commissioners who "Loved the camera time." He,also, deserved recognition from Mr. Debac regarding CITCOM ethic or lack there of. Watch a meeting with a major topic and a major news station shows up with a camera.
Along with this topic I still have a problem with the missing of the published minutes of this meeting. Who attended, who chaired and the discussion. The City Clerk was extremely busy developing a list reflecting what other cities due, but I still think minutes of a public should produce minutes. Was there any public comment? Who called for the meeting and where in public meetings was it announced that a meeting to discuss this topic released?? Was "CoCo" there?  If any assistance is needed regarding minutes one can refer to Page 15 of the Michigan Open Meetings Act. I believe these are legally required. Maybe this will be discussed at the next after being placed on the agenda.

One short comment. I would take it as a personal affront if if I had to be told,or reminded as a resident and taxpayer, that the ability to speak for 1,3, 5 minutes depended on the generosity of the governing body. It is a right not based on generosity. Yes, even if some "Expert" deems it "over generous."  I would question the right of any elected official to sit on a governing body with this opinion.

I can really understand how if a group of seven elected officials listened to 59 people could feel that whats good for 59 people is good for the rest of of the people. Again, if its blessed by an "expert." After all what should you expect for $40/20 per decision especially when they feel that their representing the "Village Idiots."  When you can decide what the "Magnificent Seven"  want to do, have an idiotic list that purports to prove their decision, knows the decision rests in their hands you better get off the tracks! Just looking at,for instance, looking at "Addison Township Public Comment Guide lines"  rules they state:

3. Public comments shall be limited to 2 minutes, unless extended by a vote of the Commission. Speakers may submit written comments in lieu, or to supplement their  verbal   
    comments.
    Comment: Depends on partisanship  of group. If truly nonpartisan will work. In Royal Oak this would never be possible.

6. Groups of speakers on the subject shall select a representative speaker in order to avoid repetition.
    Comment: Speaking to residents they note this is extremely effective if the chair (Mayor) is the controlling factor.

7. Township officials may, but are not required, to answer questions or responds to public comments at the meeting.

9. The Township Supervisor or presiding officer may halt or suspend public comment due to non-compliance with these guidelines and may defer the compleation of public to   
    the next meeting due to the number of speakers or other reasonable grounds.

After looking at a group of the bodies on this list there are so many differences that a one factor filter (time limit) is rediculas to consider for decision...Not in Royal Oak!


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ROpro

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #333 on: April 13, 2018, 11:50:26 AM »

I think you are confusing Macey and Gibbs

Coming from ROPro who seems to be a big fan of the commission majority I was thinking the same.

sorry you're correct I got them mixed up, at first it seemed Macey was a LaVass clone. But lately she has shown opposition to his time wasting and fillibustering
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Rusty Shackleford

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #334 on: April 13, 2018, 01:05:09 PM »

If you create a de-facto partisan commission, you get "time wasting" and "fillibustering" opposition.  In essence, you get exactly what you wanted.
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Sometimes I wish the government would just ban itself. Wrap your heads around that, fellas.

RORooster

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #335 on: April 13, 2018, 01:48:22 PM »

If you create a de-facto partisan commission, you get "time wasting" and "fillibustering" opposition.  In essence, you get exactly what you wanted.

Rusty,

Your to damn logical...Thank you!

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resident

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #336 on: April 13, 2018, 02:08:54 PM »

Thankfully Randy does ask questions.
Regardless if i agree with his view or not per subject of inquiry.
Somebody has to. ( otherwise see "bobbleheads"  ala Mr Buzzbuzz)
That was the most redeeming virtue of Mr. Marhle. 
 
The only thing worse than a 2 party system, is a 1 party system. 
No voted position, anywhere, should run unopposed.
I wonder if i can get my dog to run for state rep ?
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The Capitalist

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #337 on: April 13, 2018, 04:25:06 PM »

If your dog is the lone candidate on the democratic side he'd win in this town due to the straight ticket voters alone
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BuzzBuzz

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #338 on: April 13, 2018, 04:59:10 PM »

Nobody has pointed out that the efficient 3 minute limitation held to a city meetings takes place at hearings for which there is only one topic. 

Commission meetings may have may have 20 or more items.  I will concede a 3-minute limit when i am allowed to request a second time period for comment on a second (or third) separate agenda item.

And maybe a non-agenda period.  For instance, I may well have something to say when staging for civic center projects is dumped on us.  And about how the sewer cleaning insurance has sold itself and raised the yearly price by $8 (with more to come in following years?).  When I signed up I was told that early adopters would keep the same price as long as they paid up on time.  I guess promises are not carried over with mergers.

Don't think their rep mentioned this when he was called before commissioners to assure all that they were a much-loved corporation.

Which of those should I spend my 3 minutes on, and which should I put off?  Or do i ask for a second comment period to lay out concerns?

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RORooster

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #339 on: April 13, 2018, 08:07:53 PM »

Nobody has pointed out that the efficient 3 minute limitation held to a city meetings takes place at hearings for which there is only one topic. 

Commission meetings may have may have 20 or more items.  I will concede a 3-minute limit when i am allowed to request a second time period for comment on a second (or third) separate agenda item.

And maybe a non-agenda period.  For instance, I may well have something to say when staging for civic center projects is dumped on us.  And about how the sewer cleaning insurance has sold itself and raised the yearly price by $8 (with more to come in following years?).  When I signed up I was told that early adopters would keep the same price as long as they paid up on time.  I guess promises are not carried over with mergers.

Don't think their rep mentioned this when he was called before commissioners to assure all that they were a much-loved corporation.

Which of those should I spend my 3 minutes on, and which should I put off?  Or do i ask for a second comment period to lay out concerns?

Buzz,

Again, by procedural rules, you can request for a motion for more time to comment. However, given there is a motion made it requires a majority vote. Lots of luck to the every meeting speakers...5- 2 NAY! Of course if your a past commissioner, representative or county representative your home free.

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RORooster

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #340 on: April 15, 2018, 01:40:38 PM »

Nobody has pointed out that the efficient 3 minute limitation held to a city meetings takes place at hearings for which there is only one topic. 

Commission meetings may have may have 20 or more items.  I will concede a 3-minute limit when i am allowed to request a second time period for comment on a second (or third) separate agenda item.

And maybe a non-agenda period.  For instance, I may well have something to say when staging for civic center projects is dumped on us.  And about how the sewer cleaning insurance has sold itself and raised the yearly price by $8 (with more to come in following years?).  When I signed up I was told that early adopters would keep the same price as long as they paid up on time.  I guess promises are not carried over with mergers.

Don't think their rep mentioned this when he was called before commissioners to assure all that they were a much-loved corporation.

Which of those should I spend my 3 minutes on, and which should I put off?  Or do i ask for a second comment period to lay out concerns?

Buzz,

Again, by procedural rules, you can request for a motion for more time to comment. However, given there is a motion made it requires a majority vote. Lots of luck to the every meeting speakers...5- 2 NAY! Of course if your a past commissioner, representative or county representative your home free.

Rooster

Forum,


MINUTES

What must be in the minutes – at a minimum, the minutes must show the date, time, place, members present, members absent, any decisions made at a meeting open
to the public, and the purpose or purposes for which a closed session is held. The minutes must include all roll call votes taken at the meeting.
79
The OMA does not prohibit a public body from preparing a more detailed set of minutes of its public
meetings if it chooses to do so.

When must the minutes be available – proposed minutes must be made available for public inspection within eight days after the applicable meeting. Approved
minutes must be made available for public inspection within five days after the public body's approval.

When must the minutes be approved – at the board's next meeting. Corrected minutes mustshow both the original entry and the correction (for example, using a "strikethrough" word processing feature).

Closed session minutes – a separate set of minutes must be taken for closed sessions. While closed session minutes must be approved in an open meeting (with contents of the minutes kept confidential), the board may meet in closed session to consider approving the minutes.
Closed session minutes shall only be disclosed if required by a civil action filed under sections 10, 11, or 13 of the OMA. The board secretary may furnish the minutes of a closed session of the body to a board member. A member's disseminationof closed session minutes to the public, however, is a violation of the OMA, and the member risks criminal prosecution and civil penalties.

An audiotape of a closed session meeting of a public body is part of the minutes of the session meeting and, thus, must be filed with the clerk of the public body for retention under the OMA.

Closed session minutes may be destroyed one year and one day after approval of the minutes of
the regular meeting at which the closed session occurred.


Inadvertent omissions from the minutes – the OMA does not invalidate a decision due to a simple error in the minutes, such as inadvertently omitting the vote to go into closed session from a meeting's minutes.

Forum my questions are as follows:

When was the agenda posted for the public? The agenda is dated March 8, 2018 for a Rules Committee Meeting. Why was the meeting time set for 4:30 PM? Is this really a convenient time for the residents and public to attend a meeting that will impact their rights to address their elected representatives. With a total lack of minutes required by the OMA and the lack of these minutes restricting individuals and their ability to understand, and question question the basis of their decision. It seemed that during CITCOM discussion one commissioner couldnt even recall who the chair was.

If not fair to residents, by the lack of meeting minutes, was this decision even legal? Should  it not be revisited? It is interesting to note that that a sitting commissioner and trustee of the Retirement Board, missed two meeting set at 9 AM due to conflicts at work. Thus the meeting times were changed to the afternoon. Another time that maybe  convenient for city administrators but not the public. Check public comment numbers for this meeting! Check public speaker comments for the up coming budget meetings and times set for the meetings.
 
It's a game and the residents are losing and don't have a clue as to why!

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RO retailer

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #341 on: June 11, 2018, 11:11:15 PM »

Mark this date: June 11th. City Commission failed to pass 2018-19 budget. One hour and a half and the mayor is not happy.  Awwwww! 8)
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resident

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #342 on: June 12, 2018, 08:38:01 AM »

It appears Ms Macey has decided to show her brain and soul at the right time.
I admire principal before party.  She has started of late to voice for the resident taxpaying citizens , aka the people who live here.

Of course, i expect her to get much backlash behind the scenes, i hope she is tough enough to endure it.
I can say is "Well done" 
My opinion of her is slowly changing.
Even a small glimmer of hope is better than none at all.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 08:41:28 AM by resident »
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RORooster

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #343 on: June 12, 2018, 12:27:34 PM »

Mayor absent from 5/18 commission meeting, out of state on city related business.

Sources indicate that Ellison, Todd Fenton, and some DDA members are at a retailers convention in Las Vegas.

Sounds like a nice junket.

Wow,

Ellison out on a junket! Be still my heart!!! Had to be a freebie... Probably The State of Michigan and Fifth Avenue split the expenses as is his mode of operation! I can see the logic of him going to a retailers convention. If anybody can sell Bull crap it's him!

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RO retailer

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Re: Commission musings
« Reply #344 on: June 13, 2018, 08:26:40 AM »

personally, I think it is time to publically discuss RECALL. I haven't seen such a cluster bomb commission in years.  Who do you think is steering this disaster? 
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